Rules Unclear to Newbies

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Crabitalism, Mar 8, 2019.

  1. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    I was recently banned for major grief, and was voted to be kept banned.
    When I was originally banned, I was extremely confused, considering I couldn't recall a single thing I griefed, so you can imagine my surprise when I tried to log into the server and was permanently banned.
    After asking staff about the ban further, It turns out I had griefed map art while collecting resources in the resource world.

    In the rules, it is made clear that you may not break or destroy anything in any world, but a few lines down, the rules also state that you may not deface the main world, and to go to the resource world to collect your resources.
    To a complete Minecraft newbie like myself who has never heard or encountered map art, the map art looks like a resource dump from a kind Samaritan who is giving out resources to anyone who comes across the dump, or a kind builder who is giving away resources and also leveling up their class (Like people who place glass everywhere to level up their class) You can't see the picture if you aren't flying up above, so for someone who doesn't know what map art is, or how it's made, it doesn't look like art at all. Especially because you're given the prompt upon entering the world, that the resource world resets. It's hard to put two and two together with no guidance from the rules that people build intricate art pieces in a world that resets. That makes it seem even more like a dump of resources that people no longer need, and don't care if they disappear when the world resets.
    If in the rules, anything about map art was addressed I believe further misunderstandings could be avoided.

    It's sad to be banned permanently from a server that you enjoy, with no prior warning or understanding, because of a misunderstanding.
     
    Tillamoon, millewave and xsalvoBEAST like this.
  2. Asheskille

    Asheskille Olive Admin
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    The two lines "No griefing in any world." and "If you did not place it, do not break it or add to it without permission." do an excellent job covering pretty much everything regarding griefing. The rules are supposed to cover everything in a simplified manner that it isn't too long or complex, else it would become complicated for everyone. A convoluted rules page does more harm than good, and the respective rules we are discussing has effectively served the server for over two years. If staff were to add in a line regarding mapart, staff would also be required to write an extensive list of what else would be covered (which would be a very long list), or else banned players would complain that whatever they were banned for was not apart of that list.

    Additionally, it's very easy to recognise maparts as a player build and distinguishable from the natural environment (especially due it's very large and flat surface). I'm sure the reasoning as to why the person built their mapart in the resource world was because they were trying to limit people from copying their work and using the reset to their advantage. Additionally, people like to recycle their resources after completing a mapart. I do understand how players (especially newer players) may not know these techniques, however, it still doesn't excuse them from removing parts of that build (and considering you were permed, it seems you destroyed a very large portion of that map).
     
  3. xsalvoBEAST

    xsalvoBEAST New Member

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    I’m new to Minecraft multiplayer too, had no idea what map arts were. To me it just looked like a random resource spawn that was made by mods as a sort of rare spawn. Also as a new player it made sense because we were told to collect resources in the resource world because it reset periodically.
     
  4. I'm all in for a quiz concerning the rules before a new player can teleport out of the newbie area. Just putting up the signs isn't enough.
     
  5. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    You may not break anything that you didn't place... unless it's a resource in the resource world is what I can gather from those lines... because if i'm not allowed to break ANYTHING that I placed, I can't mine a single resource. Anywhere. If rules are kept so simple and concise that certain things are unclear or confusing, maybe it's worth making a more in-depth version, or a newbie handbook. If people are willing and wanting to read and follow rules then it should be encouraged, shouldn't it? This is a suggestion to help the server, not to accuse staff of doing a bad job at creating the rules. I am stating what a complete newbie sees and understands. You said staff would have to make an extensive list of everything else needing to be covered or else banned players would complain...If there are that many people who have been banned for reasons that were unclear/hard to understand in the rules, it really seems like there should be a newbie handbook made, so the experience can be enhanced for people who aren't as aware of the game and basic knowledge as everyone else. I have owned servers in different games, and one thing I learned was to list everything in the rules, and organize it within the rules. Then, there in no confusion. If a player needs to know something, it's there. That way everyone has an even playing field, and people who have played longer don't know more.

    I never stated that map art looks like part of the terrain, or that it doesn't look like a player build, it does indeed look like a resource dump, though. Or something that players don't care about disappearing, because again, it's confusing for new players. You said you understand why it would be confusing.The resource world thing isn't something that you get in basic Minecraft and is confusing. It's where you collect resources and break blocks... but at the same time there are things you cannot break.
    This isn't about trying to be excused for something, I am suggesting something to make the server more friendly towards people who have recently picked up the game and don't know the nitty-gritty, as someone who has owned servers in a different game, and had to deal with these issues myself.
     
  6. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    Yeah, that would be really nice. There are so many things that I had to learn as I went along, and since the rules are so simple and concise, it seems like you must have a basic understanding of how other servers function before being able to understand. If there was a quiz or a newbie handbook, there would be no confusion or misunderstanding. If there was a question like "What are resources?" and "are you able to collect anything besides resources in the resource world?" There wouldn't have been any confusion.
     
  7. MadMikael

    MadMikael Well-Known Member
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    For your ban, it's standard to be able to appeal again in a month - if you do so, perhaps link this thread in your appeal.

    I do agree with Ashe here, in that the rules are meant to be kept simple, and I also believe they're straight forward enough in such a case like this; but I can also see a potential for an addition to that one line:
    • Do not destroy or deface the environment of the main world except for building purposes. To mine or gather resources, go to /resource. Note that the above rule about other players builds still applies in resource.
    Still, it's not overly necessary.
    If one is worried about the rules, one generally asks in chat about it - being banned is not fun - if you're legitimately trying to play by the rules, and you're confused, it's only natural to ask. Staff online are usually on top of answering those types of questions, and typically, we have members of the community that are helpful as well. Occasionally, there's the odd joker, but in any game on any server, that's bound to happen - and you should always consult staff if you're still unsure. Trolling new players to get them to break the rules is punishable as well.

    If the rules are made overly lengthy, they will be read even less by new players, save by those looking for loopholes - which is a pain.

    As Strongest suggests, I'd like it too if there was more forcing of to read the rules before new players start, but it's unlikely to happen imo.

    The starting book "guide to castia" could use an update perhaps, but I've heard that those don't even get delivered to new players anymore, so idk. They used to give some quick tips, like "read the rules" "see the faq" etc. If they aren't delivered anymore, that should be addressed I think.

    Anyway, I wish you luck in your future ventures, maybe we'll see you back at the next appeal.
     
    Madeyemann likes this.
  8. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    I will be sure to do that, hopefully it helps!
    As someone who has owned servers previously, I've learned that rules are always evolving, changing and growing. Rules can be made an easy read by being organized well. New players don't need to know the rules of creating a dark room, but they should know everything they can about the ground rules of the server. Organizing rules into categories that are easily accessible when read seemed to be the best way to do it, that way at the end of they day it's written in the rules, and it's the players fault for not having read them. But when the argument becomes "Well... You should've been able to understand that this meant this even though it wasn't specifically written in the rules." Then it feels like an unfair playing field to those who have far less knowledge on the game as others.

    The problem with this case, was that I wasn't concerned with the rules because I was sure that I wasn't breaking them. I was just collecting recourses in my head, and there was no need to consult staff. This is because, as a new player, that's what I gathered from this seemingly random spawn of blocks in the middle of the resource world, which to my understanding was solely to collect resources. And without any guidance from the rules, about there potentially being other players builds in the resource world I had no way of knowing that this random spawn of blocks I thought I was lucky enough to come across was a piece of map art.
    Having a starting book to castia would be really nice, and having a short but sweet quiz to enforce the rules would also be nice, I think the server would rather have people join who are willing to take a short 2-3 minute quiz and then play, rather than people who won't read the rules and be a pain.

    Hopefully you will! Thanks :)
     
    #8 Crabitalism, Mar 8, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019
  9. eli_ayy

    eli_ayy Well-Known Member

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    Just a quick reply to this, though Ashe has said most of what I'd say, anyway. As he said, the rule says pretty clearly not to break blocks of a build you did not place. Your argument that, if you weren't allowed to do so, you wouldn't even be able to mine falls apart when one considers it is quite easy to tell the difference between blocks generated by Minecraft (like cave systems, trees, etc.) and those placed by players. Even if you didn't know it was a mapart, you were able to tell that the blocks were still placed by a player, and thus should not have broken them.

    I personally am in favor of keeping the rules as simple and nonspecific (while also not confusing) as possible. What's more important than every exact rule being written out and followed to the letter is that one considers what it seems like the rule is meant to convey and what impact their actions will have on others and acts accordingly.

    I look forward to your appeal in a month.
     
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  10. tikeey_

    tikeey_ New Member

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    It's not always, actually. For example, I've tunneled up into something that someone had built from underneath it before realizing it was player made. I certainly didn't do it intentionally, but by a strict rule I defaced/griefed something, and had no way of knowing it until it was already done.
     
  11. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    The problem, though is that the rules don't say that.
    They don't say "You may not break player placed blocks across any world in any server." It's kept so extremely simple that it's in turn confusing, and when things are kept that simple, you are punishing people who really do want to follow the rules to a T.

    This thread is a suggestion from what me, a complete newbie to Minecraft, has felt about the rules .at's why it might not make sense to more veteran players, but it is extremely confusing to get a prompt upon entering the resource world that you should not build there as the world resets, reading the shot description of the resource world when you hover over the shovel saying "This world is for gathering resources." And then turning around and saying "Alright, this random spawn of blocks is something I cannot break."
    Without knowing what mapart is, I think it would make sense for people to rationalize that it might be something builders placed to level up etc.

    I owned a server in a game called Garrys Mod, and we had our rules on a Google Docs... 6 pages long.
    It may seem like a lot, but there was no reason to read 6 pages of rules all at once.
    We had rules for EVERYTHING categorized for easier browsing.
    When you start out, you usually start by choosing your class, so a player would open the rules and read the rules about their class. They don't need to know the rules of owning a car, because that would come a lot later down the line. If anything were to come up that was not clarified in the rules it was promptly added. This wasn't to make reading the rules a chore, but because everyone deserves as much knowledge about our server and the game as we could provide. It's only fair for everyone to know as much as they can.
    Why keep rules vague? It only benefits people who want to lazily skim through the rules. It punishes those who are less knowledgeable about the game, but still want to understand the rules.
    Rules can be detailed and be kept organized to not be overwhelming or confusing. That way everyone has access to the same knowledge. "Use common sense." Isn't a great rule, and that's what much of it feels like.

    From my experience owning a server, I found that rules can be ever changing and evolving and that's never a bad thing. If something needs to be addressed, it needs to be addressed. Map art seems to be a big part of the economy (That's why color dyes are so expensive I heard?) So it only makes sense for something like that to have it's own set of rules.
    If everyone has access to the same amount of knowledge about your server, it's easier to weed out the bad seeds. If you didn't read the rules about creating your base, and you broke a rule you were punished. It wasn't "Use common sense about basing. Don't make it unraidable." Well, what constitutes as unraidable? Do I have to have a very clear entrance to my base to make to raidable? etc...

    Again, this is just what a newbie has observed, so i'm probably in the minority here, but newbies deserve a fair shot at playing as well. With the current vague rules, it doesn't feel like there is much of a fair shot.
     
  12. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    Yeah.. very confusing. I wonder if you will get banned for that mistake as well?
     
  13. TheHeroOf_Legend

    TheHeroOf_Legend Active Member

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    TheHeroOf_Legend
    Only if he was in main.
    And he would be banned/warned anyway because he would be defacing main.
    Also digging up is dumb, like, there's no logical reason to, sorry kiddo.
     
  14. Crabitalism

    Crabitalism New Member

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    Oof, kiddo :'(((
    There might've been a reason he was digging up, like making stairs up after mining if he was in resource, and you aren't allowed to grief builds in resource either so he could technically get banned for griefing in resource right? At least that's my understanding.. Or maybe it was an underground build like a basement or smth that he accidently tunneled up into, who knows. I'm sure there was a reason! I like your characters skin btw :D
     
  15. TheHeroOf_Legend

    TheHeroOf_Legend Active Member

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    TheHeroOf_Legend
    Oh ty.
    But I meant what I said, because in order to mine, you tunnel down right?
    so you just walk back up that tunnel to get out, see where the problem is?
    And yes he would be banned/warned for griefing in resource.
     

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